Who is responsible or countable ?

From another post

quote:

Pay your own way, bring your own water, I will not be responsible for individuals, but will gladly guide members to the top.

Well I hate to say this :

If you are guiding or just leading a group or individual or just invite people to just join you and something goes wrong you will be held responsible and countable especially in this country. That is why I have stoped give out info on hiking routes etc .
Even if you give out info to someone even if it's by email and someone as a accident or get lost or something like that and someone asks who told you or who gave you that info ? and they give your name, you can be held responsible and a countable. In this country someone is always held a countable.

In my book It doesn't matter if you are a professional guide or not, you are always responsible for people you take.

BP

This message has been edited. Last edited by: The Hokkaido Bush-Pig,

Thanks for the advice. I'm going... and if anybody wants to tag along for the walk/climb that is fine. I am not a 'guide' or responsible for safety, equipment reliability, readiness or anything else.

I've been in this country for 15 years and one thing I have learned is not take a position of responsibility that can be implied.

Your advice is very good though, because I can totally see that kind of thing happening here.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kirt,

Dear Kirt

quote:

if anybody wants to tag along for the walk/climb that is fine. I am not a 'guide' or responsible for safety, equipment reliability, readiness or anything else.

My point is, you may not think so but other people will and especially when things go wrong and being here 15 years makes it worst for you because people will say you should have knowen better.

Here is an example
If someone joins you and forgets their water and or food and starts to feel the affects of that and falls back, what do you do ? keep on going leave them behine ? if someone has forgotten some safety gear and get into trouble, people will ask you why you didn't check and like I said before they will hold you a countable.

My point is you may not think you are responsible for safety, equipment reliability, readiness or anything else. but if things go wrong are the police or park rangers get involved, they will for sure think that you are responsible.

That is the point I wanted to make.

BP

This message has been edited. Last edited by: The Hokkaido Bush-Pig,

Thank you. Point-for-point I believe you are giving good advice - and covering issues I originally did not consider. Hmmmm... grin and hope nobody takes me up on the offer.

sorry Kirt

Wasn't trying to put you down. I'm sure you are a good and experience hiker .
Just I want to point out, not just to you but to others out there. That when you invite people to join you on any type of hike or trek there are a few thing to think about and consider. In other counties it wouldnt be such a issue but in this country it can be.

Like I keep saying to people

quote:

In this country, small and insignificant things can turn into very big problem or issues, things you would never think about.

I hope there are no hard feelings .

Happy hiking Kirt

BP

No hard feelings at all - but have had a few days to research and also view an angle not originally clear to me.

First, a comment you made in the original post:
"That is why I have stoped give out info on hiking routes etc .
Even if you give out info to someone even if it's by email and someone"

How does this explain the oodles of hiking guide blogs, web sites, and forums that are in the Japanese language? Are each of these people held responsible? The answer is No, because they have clauses on the information they provide that positions personal responsibility.

Also, I can see why a paid professional hiking/trekking guide would discourage posts such as mine on an open forum. If people start gathering online for weekend excursions, weil, you know the re$t. This is just being devil's advocate.

OK! Gloves Off !

Dear, Dear Kirt

quote:

How does this explain the oodles of hiking guide blogs, web sites, and forums that are in the Japanese language? Are each of these people held responsible? The answer is No, because they have clauses on the information they provide that positions personal responsibility.

Actually the answer is YES. If the Authorities think that the information given on these blogs or forums or whatever as lead to someone having an accident of even getting killed, they will hold the person or persons responsible and a countable with or without a clauses.
The clauses are mainly there to stop people from taking legal action.

quote:

Also, I can see why a paid professional hiking/trekking guide would discourage posts such as mine on an open forum. If people start gathering online for weekend excursions, weil, you know the re$t. This is just being devil's advocate.

You wouldn't be more wrong here. I'm all for people doing there own trips and going without a professional guide. What I am not into is want-to-be guides or want-to-be hiking expert who don't want to take responsibility for other peoples safety.

I have over 25 years of guiding and outdoor experience and have seen a lot of things on the trails and in the mountains.

When I first came here I didnt plan to get into guiding trips at all.
All I wanted to do were solo trips and just look after me. But! on alot of my solo trips and especially the long trips I ran into groups or pairs with someone who had invited people to join him or her and like you didn't want to be or didn't want to have any responsibility.
Usually when I ran into these groups it was a couple of days in and the groups weren't doing so well .
People had blisters and other problem, some people were burnt-out because of bing pushed to hard and just trying to keep up with the group or the person that invited them.
Some people didn't have the right gear and so on. The persons who were the so called leaders or should I say not the so called leaders didn't really check that other people had first aid kits and so on. When things started to go wrong really didnt want to know about it.
I don't know how manytimes I asked groups "who you is responsible for you group?" or "who is your leader?" and people would point to someone but when I went up to talk to them that person would say to me "I'm not responsible for anyone, I just organized this trip" or " I just invited these people ".
The thing is, you might not think you are responsible but other people might.

On more than a few occasion I had to step in and treat people for their injuries and give advice and on more than a few occasion people in the group asked if they could join me so in the end I became they guide and I was responsible for them if I like it or not. Sometime people just want to feel that they can trust the person who they go with. Especially if that person say's he knows the area and so on.

My point here is alot of these problems wouldn't have happen if the person who had invited or organized those trips had taken a bit of responsible and kept that responsible threw the whole trip.

The reason I started guiding here wasn't to make money but I saw a need for someone to be responsible and I was tired of all these want-to-be guides or so called hiking experts who just wanted the glory and not the responsibility . There a lot of very experience non-prfessional hikers out and I know a lot who have no problem taking up responsibility and some you camn find on this board.
The other reason is some people want someone to be responsible and to make sure of their safety and well being and go with someone who know's what they are doing and is prepared to carry responsibility and there should be a price for this .

In my book If you go with someone like yourself who doesnt want to be responsible it like playing russian roulette in my book.

You invite people to go hiking, you should be responsible, bottom line. It is a moral obligation even if it isn't a legal one

Like I said before, you may not want to be responsible but when the sh#t hit's the fan people will expect you to be and come up with the answers to the problem weather you like it or not. This was my whole point from the start.

Good bye Kirt ! Got trips to organize and people to be responsible for.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: The Hokkaido Bush-Pig,

Thanks for the discussion. You've shed some harsh light on a subject that I think probably needed to be addressed here, and in other Japanese forums. Again, thanks for the good advice and allowing me to push buttons, so you could clarify some earlier points.

Just a few more comments....

"Actually the answer is YES. If the Authorities think that the information given on these blogs or forums or whatever as lead to someone having an accident of even getting killed, they will hold the person or persons responsible and a countable with or without a clauses."

This applies to anything published on the internet or elsewhere and is not limited to hiking.

"You invite people to go hiking, you should be responsible, bottom line. It is a moral obligation even if it isn't a legal one"

Agree.